Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog
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A Fascinating Catholic Answers Forums Thread
07/27/2009 - James White
M.S. informed me of this fascinating thread over on the Catholic Answers Forums. It is sad, and encouraging, all at the same time. What is sad, clearly, is that the users assume someone like Keating, who has refused to engage any meaningful critique of his apologetics writings for decades now, would have a meaningful response to my criticism. But what is encouraging is that at least that portion of my argument was posted in full and, at least to this point, the link to the article is still there. So, we can only hope that the serious minded readers of the forums (who are rarely the most talkative in my experience) will consider well just how shallow and untenable Rome's arguments based upon Luke 1:28 really are.16:04:53 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Whose Line is it Anyway?
07/27/2009 - Tur8infan
I was amused to note one example of Rome's improvisational informal magisterium at work to poach another Reformed slogan. It's not one of the slogans that the first generation reformers used (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Sola Deo Gloria), but one that became popular in the 17th century:“Ecclesia reformata quia semper reformanda est” (“The Church is Reformed, because Always Reforming”) - Jodocus von Lodenstein (Dutch Reformed Theologian 1620-1677)
“Numquam reformata quia numquam deformata” (“Never reformed because never deformed”) - Pope Innocent XI (pope from 1676 to 1689) (speaking of the Carthusian order)
“Always reforming, always in need of reform.” - Steve Ray (calling it "One of the Church’s mottos")(source - H.T. to James Swan for pointing this out to me) (see also "The Catholic Church is in need of reform and always reforming." "The Church is like a roller coaster zooming through the centuries. There are high points and low points. The Church is always reforming and always in need of reform."
Steve Ray's main quotation is right, but only because he said "the Church" and not "Rome." It's a very popular motto of a number of the Reformed churches, especially the Presbyterian churches, which make up (together with all those churches that profess faith in Christ alone for salvation) the visible Church. It's not a particularly popular slogan among the popes, especially not Innocent XI.
Of course, obviously, "reformation" is not necessarily a dirty word in Catholicism. Trent's purpose was, among other things, reformation:
Doth it please you, --unto the praise and glory of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost; for the increase and exaltation of the Christian faith and religion; for the extirpation of heresies; for the peace and union of the Church; for the reformation of the Clergy and Christian people; for the depression and extinction of the enemies of the Christian name,-- to decree and declare that the sacred and general council of Trent do begin, and hath begun?- Trent, Decree Touching the Opening of the Council.
They answered: It pleaseth us.
To the extent that Mr. Ray was recognizing that his church is in need of reform, Praise be to God that he has recognized this and if God brings another great Reformation, we will rejoice!
Until then we will note that Rome's motto has been the false claim: Semper Eadem (Always the Same)
Whereas the Reformed churches have sought to have the motto: Ecclesia reformata semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei - for it is Verbum Dei (the word of God) that is truly semper eadem (always the same), and men and churches need to submit to the Word of God and reform themselves to it, whenever they discover they have strayed from it.
-TurretinFan
10:58:41 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Is Mariolatry Comparable to Indian Idolatry?
07/23/2009 - Tur8infan
How dare I suggest that this story (link) about an Indian idol's problem with folks outdoing themselves by giving their idols large crowns have anything to do either with this photo of an idol to Mary (attempted image of Jesus in the background) or these similar idols (first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth) or similar to this gift of a golden rose to an idol of Mary (link)? I dare because I think those who are willing to seriously consider the matter must see that Roman Catholicism treats Mary as a goddess in every way except actually saying the word "goddess."But I know my words have little influence. After all, who am I? Just an anonymous Reformed apologist. Perhaps you think my judgment is biased. Perhaps then you will hear what Tertullian ("the Father of Latin Christianity") had to say. ...
[Click Here to Continue Reading]
06:56:52 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

The Unity of Rome Illustrated
07/22/2009 - James White
So, the long and short of it is this: we need to stop going to the Protestants for our understanding of Justification, whether it’s Joseph Fitzmyer’s attempt to say that justification is “forensic” in his New Jerome Biblical Commentary, or Scott Hahn’s attempt to say that “works of the law” refers only to the ceremonial law or that works are only required in “final justification.” These divergences arise because of a basic misunderstanding of how the Old Covenant relates to the New, which is the same problem we are having today when Catholic prelates deny supersessionism and teach that the Old Covenant is still valid for the Jews today. One small error can send us off in a hundred different, but erroneous, directions.Robert Sungenis
16:17:16 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

A Brief Comment on the "Communion of Saints" and Catholic Blogger "Devman"
07/22/2009 - James White
I was directed to this blog entry that provides a response, of sorts, to a brief comment I offered about praying to "St. James" for my conversion. I wondered out loud just what St. James is supposed to do for me. Is he supposed to contradict himself relating to the second chapter of his epistle, found in Scripture? Of course, that was meant to communicate the fact that those who cannot give a scriptural response to the commentary I have offered in print for years (The God Who Justifies pp. 329-354) are barking up the wrong tree to attempt to circumvent scriptural truths through prayers to authors who, in reality, are not hearing a word they are saying and who would not intervene even if they could. I likewise asked what James, or Jerome, or anyone else, is supposed to do. Do these saints send down some kind of grace? Send angels? Just what is the nature of this activity from beyond? Or are they just going to pray for me? But to what end? Isn't God already doing His best? Don't I have my libertarian free will? All of these questions were meant to raise issues I have expanded upon in many other forums (including the recent series I did reviewing my debate with Patrick Madrid on the veneration of saints and angels).In an article titled "More Heat But No Light from James White," a Roman Catholic (former atheist) named "Devman" (might the URL indicate his name is Devin Rose?) commented on this single paragraph. He identifies my response as "ridicule," and surely, when you start asking just what Roman Catholic piety is supposed to accomplish, with its myriads of prayers, candles, rosaries, novenas, and processions replete with statues and the like, the result cannot help but sound like ridicule. One is reminded of this video:
In today's culture you are not allowed to speak the simple truth about this kind of activity: it is idolatry, plain and simple, and no amount of truth-twisting and word-smithing is going to change that. In any case, before responding to his actual claims, I would like to thank him for setting himself apart from Jimmy Akin, Tim Staples, Mark Shea, Steve Ray, and the whole host of lesser-known Roman Catholic apologists by referring to me as a "Refomed Baptist Protestant apologist." Unlike the large majority of his compatriots, Devman has chosen the high road, skipping past the mind-numbing cavil of "anti-Catholic." In fact, in an earlier post he actually suggested people compare Shea's book with mine, Scripture Alone! Congratulations are in order. Now on to his comments. He writes:
His remarks are disingenuous, for he well knows as a professional Protestant apologist what the Catholic Church teaches about the communion of saints, yet instead of accurately portraying that belief, he deliberately caricatures it.My remarks are anything but disingenuous. Yes, they were brief, and were meant to use irony with a dash of sarcasm, but as I noted above, they have a purpose that is meant to get someone to think. Yes, I well know what the concept of the communion of saints involves, but that wasn't my point, was it? My point was to ask what praying to James is supposed to accomplish in light of the fact that 1) James didn't teach what Roman Catholics suppose he did, and 2) what kind of "influence" can a saint in heaven exercise over someone such as myself? And given the emphasis upon a form of libertarianism that is vital to the existence of the entire sacramental system, what would be involved in praying for my conversion to Romanism in the first place?
So how did I caricature this? We go on:
We ask a saint in Heaven to pray for us, and by God’s Providence and facilitation, they can hear us and respond by praying to our Father. It is not much different than asking a fellow Christian to pray for you.Oh, but it most definitely is different, and that is the whole point. The common Roman Catholic assertion that praying (note the word, it is important) to saints is "not much different than" asking a fellow Christian to pray for us is simply fallacious. I am not "praying" to my fellow Christian. Prayer is an act of worship. Roman Catholic practice has robbed prayer of its exalted position (by allowing it to saints, angels, and in particular, to Mary), and we have successfully debated this topic in the past. There is this little problem of the fact that just announcing the idea of the "communion of saints" does not amount to a valid way around the fact that there is a fundamental separation between those who are alive in this world, and those who are alive in the next. The "communion" part is due to our union with Christ, not due to some kind of ease of communication! You simply do not find the saints on earth communicating with the saints in heaven (and no, my Roman Catholic friends, having the prayers of the saints in bowls in apocalyptic language does not provide you a foundation for such a concept). So, you can try to gloss over the fundamental problems with such a non-apostolic practice by mere analogy to my asking a fellow believer to pray for me will not do.
It is not “magical” when you pray for me and God hears and answers by giving me grace–it is wonderful and amazing and beautiful, but it is not some kind of conjuring; rather, it is how God has created the world and us and made it possible for us to be in communion with one another.So, does this mean that Devman is offering the following answer to my question? That when person X prays to saint Y for me, that saint Y then prays to God and God is then convinced to give grace to person X? Is this grace that God would not have given otherwise? And what does this grace do? Does it help person X convert me? Is that the idea?
I do not get the indication (and I could surely be wrong) that Devman has listened to the debate with Patrick Madrid on these subjects, for he offers the same reasoning that we have examined many times before:
One obvious objection is that the canonized saints in Heaven are all dead people, and surely dead people can’t hear us, so it is at best a waste of time and at worst some kind of sorcery to ask them to pray for us. However, in Luke 20:38, Jesus says in his reply to the Sadducees that “he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” Further, in Matthew 17 suddenly Moses and Elijah appear before Jesus during the Transfiguration: “And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.” Connecting the two Biblical dots here can tell us that by God’s grace and power human death does not end communication (or communion) between them and God and living persons. These are only two of the many passages in the Bible which directly or indirectly support the communion of saints.Biblical dots. Thus the infallible Church creates her dogmas? Not clear hermeneutical conclusions based upon careful handling of the text, but "biblical dots"? Of course the saints in heaven are alive. No one has said otherwise. But where is the evidence that Christians are to pray to them? Sure there are lots of emotional stories, but how about some biblical evidence? And notice the equivocation of terms, "death does not end communication (or communion) between them and God and living persons." Where is there any communication inherent in recognizing that the saints are alive in God's presence? Are we seriously to believe that the unique, one-of-a-kind event of the Transfiguration itself is a meaningful foundation for communication with those who have passed from this life? Do I really need to point out that there is actually no example of communication between the apostles and Moses and Elijah, that it is limited to Jesus, and hence would not, even if it was pressed far out of its meaningful context, support such a concept?
As for this being some invention of “modern Roman Catholicism”, history is against Mr. White. My friend Tom posted a few months back about one example from the 7th century of praying for those who have died.Seventh century? Who has ever denied that by the seventh century all sorts of unbiblical traditions were as popular as popcorn? What I had written was, "but it is still striking to ponder how far from the mindset of the inspired writers modern Roman Catholicism truly is." I had used as my example...what? An example from modern Roman Catholicism. So why change the subject of what I was addressing?
So what is one to do? Avoid polemical apologists like Mr. White and find charitable and reasonable persons with whom to engage in dialogue. Oh, and definitely pray for James White and ask the saints to pray for him.Yes, avoid that guy! It looks like that memo went out a few years ago to all the Roman Catholic apologists. They would like to tell you that is because I'm such a mean, terrible, horrible, nasty person: but that would require that you not actually watch any of the nearly three dozen debates we have done over the years with Roman Catholic apologists. Oh, but wait, here's one: let's see who the mean "polemical" apologist is here:
Or, how about this one?
I would invite Devman to examine all five debates I have done with Mitch Pacwa and then defend this words in light of the reality of the record.
16:13:23 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Flattening Flimsy Flim-Flam
07/21/2009 - Tur8infan
Mr. Mark Shea (link) seems to think that Dr. White's post (link) is so much "huff-puffery." Thankfully, the flim-flam from which Mr. Shea's argument is constructed is so flimsy that it is flattened by even fairly rudimentary analysis.Mr. Shea seems to have forgotten the important lesson of the story of the three little pigs. The lesson wasn't so much that one needs to label the bad guy as a wolf or call his arguments huffing and puffing, but that one needs to have a house built out of something more substantial than straw and/or sticks. In this case, Mr. Shea's arguments are the argumentative equivalent of the straw house. Why? Because they lack the solid foundation of Scripture. As Cyril of Jerusalem (about A.D. 315 – 386) put it:
Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture IV, Section 17
Mr. Shea is clearly not fond of the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture. He writes: "The whole 'Scripture is perspicuous' thing is a classic case of elevating human tradition to the level of equality with the word of God." We chuckle to ourselves wondering whether Mr. Shea, adhering to papal traditions as he does, means that as a criticism or a compliment.
After all, the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture goes back to the earliest Christian writers. For example, Justin Martyr (about A.D. 100 – 165) suggests that at least some of the Scriptures have a clear meaning that requires no interpretation:
Pay attention, therefore, to what I shall record out of the holy Scriptures, which do not need to be expounded, but only listened to.- Justin Martyr, Dialog With Trypho, Chapter 55
Mr. Shea's straw (over twigs) construction choice is revealed in his straw man argument:
It works like this: the enthusiast for the doctrine of the "perspicuity of Scripure" [sic] reasons "God always does what is best. Having a Bible that is perspicuous is best. Therefore, God has done that."Of course, neither Dr. White nor any serious proponent for Scripture's perspicuity argues that way.
We have many arguments at our disposal, we might, as Irenaeus (about A.D. 130 - 200) did and take the position that the perspicuity of Scripture is self-evident, hidden only from the blind:
Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them; and since they proclaim that one only God, to the exclusion of all others, formed all things by His word, whether visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, in the water or under the earth, as I have shown from the very words of Scripture; and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies, by what falls under our notice, that one Being made and governs it,—those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]; but they put fetters upon themselves, and every one of them imagines, by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables, that he has found out a God of his own.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 27, Section 2
But alas, while some of Mr. Shea's colorful rhetoric (which we have striven, by way of flattery through imitation, to duplicate) may be fresh, some of the strawy arguments he uses are quite moldy by now. For example, he argues:
You can always find some sort of biblical justification for your pet idea. And with sufficient will power or ego, you can trumpet your pet idea as the Revealed Will of God Almighty, denouncing anybody who questions your pet theory, not as somebody who questions your pet theory, but as an enemy of God who "rails away" at God Almighty, while "The child of God knows better." It's a very cozy way to congratulate yourself.This characterization of Scripture (in addition to leading one to make a note to oneself: "remember not to trust Mr. Shea's biblical self-justifications") is contrary to that of the founder of Latin Christianity, Tertullian (about A.D. 160 -220) who stated:
Then, if even the heretic seek refuge in the depraved thoughts of the vulgar, or the imaginations of the world, I must say to him: Part company with the heathen, O heretic! for although you are all agreed in imagining a God, yet while you do so in the name of Christ, so long as you deem yourself a Christian, you are a different man from a heathen: give him back his own views of things, since he does not himself learn from yours. Why lean upon a blind guide, if you have eyes of your own? Why be clothed by one who is naked, if you have put on Christ? Why use the shield of another, when the apostle gives you armour of your own? It would be better for him to learn from you to acknowledge the resurrection of the flesh, than for you from him to deny it; because if Christians must needs deny it, it would be sufficient if they did so from their own knowledge, without any instruction from the ignorant multitude. He, therefore, will not be a Christian who shall deny this doctrine which is confessed by Christians; denying it, moreover, on grounds which are adopted by a man who is not a Christian. Take away, indeed, from the heretics the wisdom which they share with the heathen, and let them support their inquiries from the Scriptures alone: they will then be unable to keep their ground. For that which commends men’s common sense is its very simplicity, and its participation in the same feelings, and its community of opinions; and it is deemed to be all the more trustworthy, inasmuch as its definitive statements are naked and open, and known to all. Divine reason, on the contrary, lies in the very pith and marrow of things, not on the surface, and very often is at variance with appearances.- Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 3
Mr. Shea doesn't limit himself to suggesting that Scripture is ambiguous, he also argues that experience tells us that this is so:
The thing is, the perspicuity of Scripture is one of those ideas, like Marxism, that is the result of theory run amuck and removed entirely from the laboratory of real life ... people who assert things like the Perspicuity of Scripture as Revealed Truth have to face the fact that the Laboratory of Experience is simply against them. The one thing Scripture is not is perspicuous.I wonder if this is where Mr. Shea hopes to gain an edge on folks with less experience in the laboratory than he. I refer to folks like Athanasius (about A.D. 297 - 373) who wrote:
And this is usual with Scriptures, to express itself in inartificial and simple phrases.- Athanasius, Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 3
And again:
These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, ‘Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures.’ And He reproved the Jews, saying, ‘Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me.- Athanasius, Letter 39, Section 6
Perhaps, as I say, Mr. Shea believes himself a better Christian scientist or laboratory technician in the laboratory of life than Athanasius. If so, then no doubt he will not be shy to proclaim his experimental superiority over Hilary of Poitiers (about A.D. 315 - 367) who declared:
The Lord enunciated the faith of the Gospel in the simplest words that could be found, and fitted His discourses to our understanding, so far as the weakness of our nature allowed Him, without saying anything unworthy of the majesty of His own nature.- Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 9, Section 40
Mr. Shea assures us (attempting to justify his pet idea from Scripture - see above) that:
That's not me talking, that's 2 Peter:One wonders if Mr. Shea is aware of how this verse was understood by the early Christians. Augustine (about A.D. 354 - 430) explains:
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)
For it is none other than the question of God's grace which has caused persons of no understanding to think that the Apostle Paul prescribes it to us as a rule, "Let us do evil that good may come." It is in reference to these that the Apostle Peter writes in his second Epistle; "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent, that you may be found of Him in peace, without spot and blameless and account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, has written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things: in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." Take good heed, then, to these fearful words of the great apostle; and when you feel that you do not understand, put your faith in the meanwhile in the inspired word of God, and believe both that man's will is free, and that there is also God's grace, without whose help man's free will can neither be turned towards God, nor make any progress in God. And what you piously believe, that pray that you may have a wise understanding of.- Augustine, Letter 214, Sections 6-7
Augustine understood Peter to be saying that it may be very hard to reconcile Paul's teaching of Grace and of Free Will, but we should simply accept the plain teaching both that men have wills and that God gives grace. I won't derail this with a further discussion of Augustine's compatibilism, but suffice that this passage demonstrates that Augustine at least viewed Peter as suggesting that the error is not in thinking that Paul speaks in riddles, but simply that he speaks about things that are hard fully to understand.
Shea throws another straw man into the pile by asserting that the rebuttal to citation of 2 Peter 3:15-16 is as follows:
Standard boilerplate replies generally run toward saying things like "Paul's writing is perspicuous, it's just the ignorant and unstable who screw things up."Of course, that's not the primary response although it does sound a bit like what Augustine and other fathers have said.
The primary response is that the doctrine of perspicuity doesn't claim that every text of Scripture is equally clear. Just that the necessary things are clear. And the second is like it: "some things hard to understand" suggests what should be blindingly obvious to all, namely that Paul's letters also contain some things not hard to understand (not by logical necessity, of course, but simply common inference).
After chopping the straw man into little bits with reference to Revelation and Job, Mr. Shea decides to present a view of perspicuity that is a little closer to accurate mixed in with more straw:
What doctrines like the "perspicuity of Scripture" *really* mean is "Scripture means what I take it to mean, no more, no less. The easy to understand parts are the parts that agree with what I think. The hard to understand parts are the parts that a) talk about unimportant stuff or b) must be subordinated to what I understand."Most of that, the part about perspicuity meaning that "Scripture means what I take it to mean," is just another straw man, but you'll recognize hiding behind the bulky straw man the actual position lurking as a sub-point.
One wonders whether Mr. Shea is even aware of what John Chrysostom (A.D. 347 - 407) spoke about the perspicuity of Scripture:
What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain. But because ye are hearers for pleasure’s sake, for that reason also you seek these things. For tell me, with what pomp of words did Paul speak? and yet he converted the world. Or with what the unlettered Peter? But I know not, you say, the things that are contained in the Scriptures. Why? For are they spoken in Hebrew? Are they in Latin, or in foreign tongues? Are they not in Greek? But they are expressed obscurely, you say: What is it that is obscure? Tell me. Are there not histories? For (of course) you know the plain parts, in that you enquire about the obscure. There are numberless histories in the Scriptures. Tell me one of these. But you cannot. These things are an excuse, and mere words. Every day, you say, one hears the same things. Tell me, then, do you not hear the same things in the theaters? Do you not see the same things in the race-course? Are not all things the same? Is it not always the same sun that rises? Is it not the same food that we use? I should like to ask you, since you say that you every day hear the same things; tell me, from what Prophet was the passage that was read? from what Apostle, or what Epistle? But you cannot tell me—you seem to hear strange things. When therefore you wish to be slothful, you say that they are the same things. But when you are questioned, you are in the case of one who never heard them. If they are the same, you ought to know them. But you are ignorant of them.- John Chrysostom, Homily 3 on 2 Thessalonians
I realize that this may sound to Mr. Shea like John Chrysostom is saying:
"Ignorant and unstable people may twist Scripture, but I am safe from all that so I understand perfectly what Scripture means. And when the Church disagrees with me, that's because the ignorant and unstable are disagreeing with me, who am not ignorant or unstable."[the argument he puts in the mouth of perspicuity advocates]But I wonder if he'd be so bold as to claim that Athanasius was saying almost exactly that when Athanasius (against the vast majority of the church of his day) contended:
"But," says the Arian, "is it not written?" Yes, it is written! And it is necessary that it should be said. But what is well written is ill understood by heretics. If they had understood and grasped the terms in which Christianity is expressed, they would not have called the Lord of glory [1 Corinthians 2:8; cf. James 2:1] a creature nor stumbled over what is well written.- Athanasius, Epistle to Serapion
But perhaps he just means that the church fathers were unaware of the practical consequences of their doctrines. After all, Mr. Shea points out the large number of denominations of Protestants relying on the false 33,000 number (previously shown to be false). The early church fathers, after all, were not around to see this consequence that Mr. Shea attributes to the doctrine of perspicuity. But Mr. Shea downplays the issue of divisions because he recognizes that there are many divisions within his own church.
Instead, Mr. Shea plays up what he thinks are major differences, for example: "you are still faced," he says, "with colossal and mutually contradictory differences between say, Oneness Pentecostals (who deny the Trinity) and Trinitarian Protestant." One wonders if Mr. Shea really thinks the core Trinitarian and especially Christological doctrines are not clear from Scripture. On such a point he would seem to be at odds with men like Theodoret (about A.D. 393 - 457) who stated:
Although you have not yet met me, I think that your excellency is aware of the open calumnies that have been published against me, for you have often heard me preaching in church, when I have proclaimed the Lord Jesus, and have pointed out the properties alike of the Godhead and of the manhood; for we do not divide one Son into two, but, worshipping the Only-begotten, point out the distinction between flesh and Godhead. This, indeed, is I think confessed even by the Arians, who do not call the flesh Godhead, nor address the Godhead as flesh. Holy Scripture clearly teaches us both natures.- Theordoret, Letter 99
Or Augustine:
In order, therefore, that the human mind might be purged from falsities of this kind, Holy Scripture, which suits itself to babes has not avoided words drawn from any class of things really existing, through which, as by nourishment, our understanding might rise gradually to things divine and transcendent.- Augustine, On the Trinity, Book 1, Chapter 1, Section 2
Or Novation (about A.D. 200 - 251) who proves the Trinity from Scripture:
Unless, therefore, we hold all this with fitting veneration and lawful argument, we shall reasonably be thought to have furnished a scandal to the heretics, not assuredly by the fault of the heavenly Scriptures, which never deceive; but by the presumption of human error, whereby they have chosen to be heretics.- Novation, On the Trinity, Chapter 30
If so, if Mr. Shea really thinks that the Scripture is not clear on the important topic of the Trinity, we are puzzled why he thinks the Bible is clear on other things. For example, Mr. Shea himself confessed the perspicuity of Scripture with respect to the at least occasional permissibility of the death penalty:
Some Catholics are fine with this. The reasons for this vary. Some already oppose the death penalty on other grounds and, in fact, go further than the Church by trying to say the Church errs in permitting it at all. I think they are wrong both for theological reasons (i.e. Scripture clearly permits it at times) and for practical reasons (sometimes people just need killing for the common good). Some agree with the Church's teaching as it is laid out in Evangelium Vitae.(source)
Likewise, Mr. Shea thinks that Scripture teaches clearly that we will get our wish:
Ask yourself: is Islam or the West more likely to produce such a person? Personally, I have a lot of trouble seeing such a figure arising in Islam, with it rock hard insistence on the distinction between creature and Creator. The West, on the other hand, is chockablock with philosophies, religious movements, pop psych, technology, literary movements, art, music, and politics which are all, in their own ways, laboring to summon just such a one from our midst. Scripture says pretty clearly that we will get our wish.(source)
So strange that God would, in his Word, make such relatively trivial things clear while leaving more important things mired in ambiguity.
But Mr. Shea's straw house will collapse. It collapses in the face of a few small puffs from Scripture:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The purpose of John's gospel is to write so that people would believe and be saved. Implicitly, this shows that the necessary things for salvation may be understood from John's gospel.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Same for John's catholic epistle as for his gospel. He wrote so that we would believe.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Scriptures are able to make one wise to salvation. This, again, implies that they teach with sufficient clarity the things necessary to be known for salvation.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Again, the very purpose of Scripture is not just to furnish the believer but to do so "throughly."
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Scripture reveals Christ, and the command to "search" at least suggests that Christ can be found by those who search.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Scripture is written for our admonition, which implies that we can read it and be admonished.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
The Scriptures were written for our learning, which likewise implies that we can read it and learn. (See also Romans 4:23-25)
But what about those folks who claim that Scripture is ambiguous and cannot be understood without tradition? We give them the following answer from tradition:
When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world” [1 Cor. ii. 6]. And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 1
2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.
3. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.
Yes, we face the same straw houses today that Irenaeus did then. We have shown that Scripture claims perspicuity for itself at least implicitly. Perhaps, in Mr. Shea's metaphor, that's our "huff." Furthermore, we have shown that the tradition of the early church acknowledged that perspicuity as well - our "puff" I suppose. But we see that Mr. Shea accepts neither Scripture nor Tradition, just as the heretics did not with whom Irenaeus dealt. And so Mr. Shea's house of flim-flam straw-men arguments falls, flattened by the weight of Scripture and Tradition with our meager "huff-puffery" serving only to present the truths as they are and not to add any weight of our own authority to the mix.
-TurretinFan
18:03:10 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Mark Shea: "No, I Can't Defend My Position, but I Can Pretend"
07/21/2009 - James White
James Swan sent me about ten clips of Shea defending his a-historical Marianism that I hope to get to on the DL soon. Today Shea posted a blog article that makes brief reference to my comments on his attack on the perspecuity and sufficiency of Scripture (found here). As is often the case with our friends on the far side of the Tiber River, though he linked to my blog article, he did not, of course, provide any kind of meaningful rebuttal (that seems to be "below" today's Roman Catholic apologists). If you look at what Shea claimed regarding marriage and the Bible, and compare Jesus' teaching in Matthew 19 (a text he somehow managed to forget to include in his diatribe), Shea's duplicity is easily seen. I included at the end of the citation of Matthew's gospel these words: "Let Mr. Shea rail away at the 'lack of clarity' of God's Word here. The child of God knows better." So instead of responding to the refutation of his own claim, Shea meanders elsewhere:You can always find some sort of biblical justification for your pet idea. And with sufficient will power or ego, you can trumpet your pet idea as the Revealed Will of God Almighty, denouncing anybody who questions your pet theory, not as somebody who questions your pet theory, but as an enemy of God who "rails away" at God Almighty, while "The child of God knows better." It's a very cozy way to congratulate yourself.I could theorize that Shea just doesn't think his readers will follow his links to see that he is not even attempting a meaningful response, but for the moment, I will just allow his statements to stand on their own. In any case, it was what came after this that caught my attention:
The thing is, the perspicuity of Scripture is one of those ideas, like Marxism, that is the result of theory run amuck and removed entirely from the laboratory of real life. Now Christianity has room for doctrines that can't be empirically verified. The doctrine of the Trinity is a classic. We believe it because God revealed it to us through Christ and his Holy Church. There's no scientific demonstration of it. Neither is there scientific disproof of it. It's not open to empirical investigation. You either trust God and his Church on this or you don't. All arguments against it can be refuted by reason. But it can't be proven by reason alone.Notice the fundamental epistemological difference between the dedicated follower of Romanism and the follower of Christ and His Word: why does Shea believe in the Trinity? "Because God revealed it to us through Christ and his Holy Church." I believe in the Trinity because it is part and parcel of the revelation of God in Scripture, which records for us its revelation in the Incarnation of Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. As a member of Christ's church I gladly recognize that the church is the recipient of this revelation, not the means by which the revelation comes. The church, as the Bride of Christ, obediently proclaims the truth revealed by her Husband. She never confuses her role with that of Christ.
It is important to see this difference, because it explains how Shea can twist and contort history the way he does to shoe-horn the Marian dogmas into the words and teachings of men who did not believe as Shea does. He can assume the existence of the Marian doctrines because his ultimate authority is, of course, Rome, and Rome insists that these doctrines are both true as well as apostolic. History truly need not get in the way of such an over-riding assertion. So, for the consistent follower of Rome, doctrines--whether the divine truth of the Trinity or the man-made falsehoods of the Marian complex of beliefs--are believed upon Rome's authority, not because God speaks in His Word. Once again the chasm between biblical faith and Roman presumption is illustrated with clarity.
17:19:41 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Can Roman Catholic Proponents Do Serious Exegesis of Central Texts?
07/17/2009 - James White
15:52:21 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

A Classic Attack upon the Perspecuity of Scripture
07/15/2009 - James White
Mark Shea just provided an excellent example of the dividing line between those who "hear" God's words and obey, and those who refuse to do so, and insist upon substitutions (sacred tradition, prophets, popes, other Scriptures, etc.). He begins:The basic rule of thumb to understand in Catholic/Protestant conversations is that it is not the case the Catholics rely on Sacred Tradition and Protestants don't. Rather, Catholics rely on Sacred Tradition and know they do, while Protestant rely on (parts) of Sacred Tradition and don't know they do.There is no question that many non-Catholics depend upon their traditions without knowing they are doing so. Witness my frequent criticism of Dave Hunt on this point. But it does not follow that the rest of us who are self-consciously seeking to give Scripture its proper place, and to test all traditions by the Word of God (as we are commanded to do so by example of the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 15) are incapable of distinguishing between ultimate authorities and secondary ones. But even here, Shea's real purpose is more dangerous: he, like Keating and those before him, seeks to rob the Scriptures of their ability to speak to the most basic, foundational issues of the faith. Note this vicious attack upon revealed Writ:
So, for instance, nowhere in the text of Scripture is it made clear that Christian marriage *must* be monogamous or that the Holy Spirit is a person, much less the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Son.Yes, I consider this a vicious attack, for it is in essence saying that what God has inspired is insufficient to reveal to us the most sacred truths of God's very existence: we are dependent, evidently, upon some kind of extra-biblical sources to know these things (though, of course, as was demonstrated long ago, Shea is incapable of defending that positive claim about tradition). I will allow the reader to compare the sound, biblical presentations on the personhood and deity of the Spirit found in Reformed theological works with the man-centered chatter of Rome's proponents today. Shea then goes on to magnify the marriage issue, speaking far more with the spirit of modern atheists who manhandle the Scriptures than that of anyone who bows before them in reverence, and concludes saying,
The fact is, the Bible says "Marriage is good" but gives us not one word of instruction on how to do it. And yet, of course, Protestant all over the world get married, believe in God the Holy Spirit, and have but one spouse because, as James Dobson say, God's plan is one man and one woman. How do they do this when Scripture is so unclear? They accept Sacred Tradition percolated to them from the Catholic Church through the Protestant tradition.Just as Shea and his compatriots cannot meaningfully answer the question I have asked so often about how the believing Jew knew Isaiah and 2 Chronicles were Scripture fifty years before Jesus was born, so too Shea here assumes what he has never proven. Does anyone seriously think that monogamy is a Roman Catholic "tradition" that is clear in the realm of Rome's teachings but unclear in Scripture? Let's allow the "unclear" Scriptures to speak to the issue:
3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"Let Mr. Shea rail away at the "lack of clarity" of God's Word here. The child of God knows better.
4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH '?
6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"
8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
(Mat 19:3-9 NASB)
10:57:38 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

From Mark Shea's Blog
07/15/2009 - James White
Shea opines,A reader asks:Of course, Christ never ordained anyone to a "sacerdotal priesthood," so we are left wondering how that answer is satisfying. Of course, the very idea that God's use of means somehow turns the means into something beyond itself (the basis of the question) is yet another problem with the entire system, but that's another issue.
Why isn't Mary considered the first priest since she actually brought Christ into this world?
Well, in a certain sense she is since she participates in the common priesthood of all the baptized. However, the short answer is: Because Christ did not ordain her to the sacerdotal priesthood.
I note a further addition to Shea's expression of Reformophobia I mentioned last night, to be found here. Shea admits he is mainly venting his hatred of yours truly and my "lackeys." I have always found it very amusing that folks like Shea think that I have legions of followers running about the web, doing my bidding. I have found this attitude amongst Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness advocates, and Muslims. Some in those groups that I choose to address for apologetic purposes react in the same way: if anyone out in the wide, wide world of the Internet happens to agree with me, and voice their agreement, that must mean James White sent them! They are all under my control! At times I am tempted to send some of these folks a tinfoil hat just for the fun of it. I find it ironic that Shea will use the "anti-Catholic" moniker frequently, yet, it is his attitude that is most accurately described as "anti-Protestant" or anti-Calvinist or however else you'd like to express it.
09:50:05 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Out of the Abundance of the Heart....
07/14/2009 - James White
Mark Shea speaks from his heart.Also, from an earlier post:
It point (as it always has) to the central flaw at the core of Calvinism: its deep and fundamental inhumanity....Logical completeness and spiritual contraction fits the madness that is Calvinism perfectly....Normal people do not pit God against his good creatures this way. But Calvinism (which Trent analyzed as a resurgent form of Manichaeaism) routinely does, at least in it anti-Catholic polemics. Of course, five centuries has done something to wear the edge of Calvinism more demented hatred of creatures....Instead, the Calvinist zealot now confines his denunciation of enjoyment, supplication, and love of creatures strictly and solely to those creatures who happen to be dead....I doubt this correspondent can be persuaded to disengage from the project of downloading pre-recorded Calvinist boilerplate to consider such an obvious bit of common sense. But I hope others, not caught in the grip of Calvinist insanity, might.It is truly hard to fathom not only the mindset that can twist reality so far out of shape, but the deep-seated emotional hatred of biblical truths that would produce such rhetoric.
18:46:54 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

St. James is Busy Worshiping His Lord, Thank you
07/13/2009 - James White
I noted this morning that Patty Bonds was encouraging folks to pray to St. James for my conversion (actually, I'm such a rough number the current list is James, Jude, Paul and even Jerome!). Aside from the obvious fact that James, like all the redeemed (and that number is co-extensive with the term "saint") are absorbed in worship of their Lord, and are not burdened with the sinful prayers of those of us on earth (all the twisting of NT texts aside), I have always wondered just what these saints are supposed to do. Do they "send grace" to folks on earth by some magical means? I mean, since it seems the exegesis of James 2 I provided in The God Who Justifies accurately represents James' views, would James then contradict himself from heaven? Or if someone prays to Paul for my conversion, would Paul send down some kind of grace that would contradict all the taught in Romans and Galatians? Yes, I know...what the Scriptures say doesn't really matter, and it is all a matter of what "the Church" teaches (as interpreted in the myriad of ways exhibited by Roman Catholics around the world), but it is still striking to ponder how far from the mindset of the inspired writers modern Roman Catholicism truly is.09:50:45 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Pre-Conversion Newman on Rome's Handling of Patristic Writings
07/11/2009 - James White
David King just posted this in our chat channel, and it is so utterly spot-on that I wanted to share it. Before Newman became a Roman Catholic, he very rightly recognized Rome's modus operandi in talking about the early writers of the church. When you provide specific citations that contradict their position, they see them as "individuals." Yet, they constantly speak of "the Fathers" as if they were modern Romanists. How do you leap from individual writers, who expressed a variety of views, to the "unanimous consent of the Fathers" to which Romanists appeal constantly? Here is what Newman said:I am but showing how Romanists reconcile their abstract reverence for Antiquity with their Romanism,—with their creed, and their notion of the Church’s infallibility in declaring it; how small their success is, and how great their unfairness, is another question. Whatever judgment we form either of their conduct or its issue, such is the fact, that they extol the Fathers as a whole, and disparage them individually; they call them one by one Doctors of the Church, yet they explain away one by one their arguments, judgments, and testimony. They refuse to combine their separate and coincident statements; they take each by himself, and settle with the first before they go to the next. And thus their boasted reliance on the Fathers comes, at length, to this,—to identify Catholicity with the decrees of Councils, and to admit those Councils only which the Pope has confirmed. John Henry Newman, Lectures on the Prophetical Office of the Church: Viewed Relatively to Romanism and Popular Protestantism, 2nd ed. (London: Gilbert & Rivington, 1838), pp. 69-71.
17:18:22 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Mark Shea Acts...Predictably (Update)
07/10/2009 - James White
On July 2nd I posted a 3,330 word article relating to particular claims made by Roman Catholic writer Mark Shea in his three-volume set on Mary. I invested a fair amount of time examining Shea's claims relating to an important topic, one related to Shea's own criticism of one of my claims. I provided evidence of error on Shea's part, documenting his errors from the text of Scripture itself.Now, I have been saying for quite some time that the majority of modern Roman Catholic apologists do not seem to have any sense of concern about the truthfulness of their claims. As long as it serves Mother Church, well, it must be good. It seems to me that these men just don't care what is said in response to their claims. Even if they are shown to be in simple factual and historical error, they will continue making the same claims in other contexts.
And Shea has pretty well demonstrated this for us all. Here is what he posted on his website:
And, in his own unique way, James White, having glanced briefly at it, raves that it is a "Desperate Defense of Marian Mythology". That's as handsome a compliment as I could have asked for!Well, there you go! Nothing about the interaction with his material, nothing about the issues raised, just...nothing. I should say, though---at least he linked to it. We can hope someone will take a moment to see how much Shea just swept under the rug.
Update:
Shortly after writing this Shea popped a cork here. I have no idea why it is titled the way it is, but that's not relevant. Shea seems upset that I actually looked to see if finally he had interacted with myself, and anyone else out here, who has been responding to Catholic apologists for the past few decades. What an amazingly anemic excuse for ignoring being refuted! He makes a snide, dishonest remark on his blog the day after I get his books (I wonder---how many of my books does Shea review?), and I post a 3,300 word documentation of error on his part on the relevant material, and I point out that his lone accusation of error is dependent upon a rather extended use of the term "early," and what does Shea do? Ignores it all, of course, and does not even attempt to interact with it. The careful reader can see why: he can't. And it must just gall him that I could pick up his book and document those problems in a brief period of time. "Oh, oh, but, you should read it all---just because you have debated us on these issues in the past and have written on the subject isn't relevant, you should wade through all the blather we Roman Catholics produce in praise of Mary and not be so concerned about all this Bible and history stuff." Again, one is left shaking one's head at the utter incapacity of the majority of Rome's most popular modern apologists to even pretend seriousness when it comes to meaningful argumentation. It is no wonder they refuse to debate.
18:53:13 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Bellisario (by Proxy) on the Papacy - Part 2
07/09/2009 - Tur8infan
Although I could not find any other published debates, articles, or podcasts from Mr. Bellisario specifically on the papacy, I did find one book review that is of interest. Mr. Bellisario recommends Mr. Adrian Fortescue's "The Early Papacy" as being: "full of great apologetics material for substantiating the Papacy in the early Church." One presumes that Mr. Bellisario may rely on what Mr. Fortescue has written in his presentation on the Dividing Line today.Mr. Fortescue writes: "let us see what [the pope's] authority really is, as defined by the Catholic Church today. We shall then be able to show that it was the same in the first four and a half centuries." (pp. 34-35) Mr. Fortescue seems to recognize that the immediate objection to his claim is that the doctrine of the papacy developed. Mr. Fortescue responds thus: "Has the papacy grown? In a sense it has, just as every Dogma of the Church may be said to have grown. We come here to that question of the development of doctrine, of which much might be said." (p. 35) After briefly qualifying the kinds of development, Mr. Fortescue concludes: "But we do not admit that this development means any real addition to the faith; it is only a more explicit assertion of the old faith, necessary in view of false interpretations." (p. 35)
Mr. Fortescue, in his brief discussion, had compared the development of the papacy to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity. In Mr. Fortescue's view, the decision of the Council of Nicaea "grew" the doctrine of the Trinity. In his view, the Fourth Lateran Council's use (in the 13th century) of the term "transubstantiation" and Vatican I's definition of papal infallibility (in the 19th century) are analogous developments to Nicaea. They are simply making explicit something that was already the old faith.
There is a serious problem with Mr. Fortescue's argument: the Nicaean definition can be shown historically to be simply a restatement of ancient doctrine. We can prove (from Scripture) that the Trinity was the teaching of the Apostles. The same is not the case for transubstantiation or papal infallibility. With respect to those views one is essentially left taking Rome's word for it: the historical evidence (whether Scriptural or patristic) does not substantiate Rome's claim that transubstantiation and papal infallibility were the faith of the Apostles.
Mr. Fortescue tries to make a positive case for papal infallibility being the ancient faith. He writes:
A conspicuous case of this is the declaration of papal infallibility by the First Vatican Council. The early Church recognized that the Pope has the final word in matters of faith, no less than in those of discipline, that she herself is protected by God against heresy. Put that together, and you have, implicitly, what the Council defined.(p. 35)
Again, Mr. Fortescue's argument is seriously flawed - in this case on at least three levels. First, it has been shown that the early church fathers did not view the bishop of Rome as having the final word in matters of discipline. In fact, to the contrary, we can demonstrate from history that this is not the case. In lieu of making this an unbearably long article, let me post a two historians (as quoted in William Webster's book, the Matthew 16 Controversy (available here):
Rome itself never either exercised or claimed to exercise 'patriarchal' rights over the entire West. Such ‘patriarchal’ jurisdiction of Rome existed de facto over the so-called suburbicarian dioceses, which covered a relatively large territory - ten provinces - which were within the civil jurisdiction of the prefect of Rome. The power of the pope upon this territory was, in every way, comparable to the jurisdiction of the Eastern patriarchs.(John Meyendorff, Imperial Unity and Christian Division (Crestwood: St. Vladimir’s, 1989), p. 328)
Nicaea I, which took place during Sylvester’s episcopate, is of interest...because of canon 6. It invoked ancient customs in assigning Egypt, Libya, and the Pentapolis to the bishop of Alexandria, affirming the customary jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome, and asserting the traditional authority of the bishop of Antioch and of the provincial metropolitans. The canon does not fix the boundaries of Roman regional power. But the expansion of the canon in Rufinus (345?–410) seems to limit Rome’s authority to the suburbicarian sees. This may reflect the actual jurisdictional situation at the end of the fourth century...Nicaea presupposes a regional leadership of Rome, but indicates nothing more. Thus one concludes that down through the Council of Nicaea, a Roman universal primacy of jurisdiction exists neither as a theoretical construction nor as de facto practice awaiting theoretical interpretation.(Paul Empie and Austin Murphy, Ed., Papal Primacy and the Universal Church (Augsburg: Minneapolis, 1974), Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V, pp. 72, 77)
A second weakness is that even if there is evidence of an eventual widespread jurisdiction of the papacy in the West, there is not corresponding evidence that the papacy had "the final word in matters of faith." In fact, as late as 1418, the "ecumenical" Council of Constance stated that: “legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the Catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general reform of the said church of God in head and members.” According to the Council of Constance, ecumenical councils, not the pope, had the final say in matters of faith.
A third weakness is that even if there were evidence both of teachings of universal disciplinary jurisdiction (which there is not) and universal "final say" in matters of faith (which there is not), it would not follow that the early church fathers viewed the bishop of Rome as infallible in himself. In other words, one could still reject the portion of Vatican I's definition: "such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable." In a hypothetical world in which the bishop of Rome has "veto" authority over even ecumenical councils (contrary to what the Council of Constance said), the bishop of Rome would still not be infallible in himself, but only by the consent (as expressed by the council) of the church. He could prevent a definition from being made, but he could not make one himself, much as the American President can veto laws, but he cannot legislate.
We could go on and on, but why belabor the point? These sorts of arguments that the doctrine was "implicitly" there in the early church fathers is almost as crushing an admission as that provided by Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman who, speaking of his theory of the development of the papacy, wrote:
It will be said that all this is a theory. Certainly it is: it is a theory to account for facts as they lie in the history, to account for so much being told us about the Papal authority in early times, and not more; a theory to reconcile what is and what is not recorded about it; and, which is the principal point, a theory to connect the words and acts of the Ante-nicene Church with that antecedent probability of a monarchical principle in the Divine Scheme, and that actual exemplification of it in the fourth century, which forms their presumptive interpretation. All depends on the strength of that presumption. Supposing there be otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity, there is nothing in the early history of the Church to contradict it.(An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 154 of the London:1878 edition)
In short, Newman has to admit that all he has is a theory, not historical documentation. A theory that he does not find contradicted by the evidence, but one that cannot be supported from the evidence (for if it could, the theory itself would not be a theory). It is a theory that "all depends on the strength of [Newman's] presumption" and more specifically the notion that there is "otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity."
Whether Fortescue's approach of seeking to find implicit teachings of the doctrine or whether Newman's approach of reading the doctrine in via external presumption is more fair, I leave to the reader's judgment. It is sufficient that both of these gentlemen are forced to admit that there is no clear teaching of such essential doctrines of Roman Catholicism as papal infallibility in the early church. Let us hope that, in his discussion on the Dividing Line today, Mr. Bellisario is as candid regarding the absence of explicit and clear patristic evidence as the scholars of his church are.
-TurretinFan
08:21:52 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Bellisario (by Proxy) on the Papacy - Part 1
07/09/2009 - Tur8infan
Mr. Matthew Bellisario has, as far as I can tell, only a single blog post directly on issues relating to the papacy (although there are a number of contra-Lutheran and contra-contraceptive posts that mention the papacy)(link to MB's post).Even in this instance, however, Mr. Bellisario is merely providing a quotation from another author. The author Bellisario quotes is Cornelius a'Lapide, a Flemish Jesuit Theologian/Exegete who died in 1637. Mr. a'Lapide's commentary is certainly interesting.
One interesting admission from Mr. a'Lapide is that Augustine denied that Peter is the Rock. To combat Augustine, a'Lapide appeals to a mythical Syriac/Hebrew original Gospel of Matthew and claims:
To S. Augustine it is replied that he was misled by his ignorance of the Hebrew and Syriac languages, and, therefore, thought that Petrus was something different from Petra, and that Peter was, as it were, called appellatively from it “rock-like,” although it is clear from the Syriac that Petrus and Petra are the same.Mislead by ignorance! I wonder if Mr. Bellisario will be so bold?
But, since Mr. Bellisario simply quotes from a theologian of his church (who in turn purports to derive his opinions from the fathers), perhaps it is an adequate rebuttal to point to a theologian of our church who has extensively studied the fathers with the benefit of a few hundred additional years of scholarship: (link to "The Patristic Exegesis of the Rock of Matthew 16:18: The Most Extensive Documentation of the Patristic Understanding of the Rock of Matthew 16 in the English Language, Spanning the Third to the Eighth Centuries" by William Webster)
-TurretinFan
08:20:20 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Preparing Bellisario - Boston College Papacy Debate
07/07/2009 - Tur8infan
Mr. Matthew Bellisario is still planning, as far as I know, to come on the Dividing Line this Thursday. Hopefully he has already benefited from the detailed resource list (posted here). There are, however, some additional resources that may be helpful. These are video clips taken from some (two, I believe) of Dr. White's previous public, moderated debates on the papacy....
[Click Here to Continue Reading]
11:23:42 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Mr. Matthew Bellisario to Appear on the Dividing Line
07/06/2009 - Tur8infan
I'm pleased to report that Mr. Matthew Bellisario has agreed to come on the Dividing Line program on Thursday and discuss the papacy. Specifically, he states that he plans to discuss Matthew 16:18-19 and "other passages" that refer to Simon Peter and his "special place amongst the apostles" as well as to discuss the papacy in the early church fathers, several of whom (according to Bellisario) interpreted the passage as showing a "special primacy of St. Peter and the chair of Rome or the chair of St. Peter as being the unified chair of the Church." (quotations taken from Mr. Bellisario's podcast)I want Mr. Bellisario to be as prepared as possible for his discussion, and so I've taken the time to highlight some of the articles found at the Alpha & Omega Ministries website on this topic. Dr. White hasn't asked me to do this, but I'm sure Dr. White would be as interested as I am in seeing Mr. Bellisario fully prepared for the discussion:
- "Whitewashing the History of the Church": This article deals with the issue of the alleged Primacy of Peter and attempted use of Cyril of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, and Augustine in support of the Roman Catholic position. Reading this article may help Mr. Bellisario to be informed about the positions that Dr. White has and has not taken with respect to these fathers on this particular topic.
- "The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18": This article is by William Webster, and it discusses what one would expect based on the title. Although this is not by Dr. White, it provides some valuable insight into the kinds of ready answers that we in the Reformed camp have when someone tries to misrepresent the early church fathers as teaching the doctrines of Rome with respect to the papacy.
- "The Peter Syndrome": This article's sub-title, "Roman Catholic Writers See Papal Supremacy Behind Every Bush, or In Every Early Father" sums up the article's discussion well. The article shows that just because Peter is mentioned by a church father doesn't mean that papal supremacy is under discussion or even being tangentially referenced. It exposes one of the unhelpful filters often applied by Roman Catholic writers in this discussion. It is primarily focused on responding to a book by Scott Butler et al. but it has a broader application to those who use similar arguments.
- "Robert Sungenis and ἐπὶ ταύτῃ": This article gets into the exegesis of the actual Greek words used in the text of Matthew and demonstrates problems with some of the Roman Catholic attempts to get around this text.
- Mark Bonocore and Isaiah 22:20-22, Part I, Part II, Part III: Deals with one Roman Catholic attempt to respond to Dr. White's challenge: where do we find the ancient church speaking as modern Rome on the matter of Isaiah 22:20-22 and Matthew 16:18-20?
- Still No Bible Verses Establishing the Papacy: This is my own article responding to Steve Ray's attempts to use Scriptures and the church fathers to establish the papacy. While, of course, this does not necessarily represent Dr. White's position, it illustrates some additional arguments from the Reformed perspective that Mr. Bellisario should be ready for, if Mr. Bellisario uses arguments similar to those of Mr. Ray.
- How Biblical and Ancient is the Papacy? (DVD)(CD)(MP3): Taped on Long Island in April of 1998, James White debates Roman Catholic Priest Mitchell Pacwa S.J. on the Biblical and Historical merits of the Papacy (2hrs 20 minutes)
- The Boston College Papacy Debate (CD)(MP3): James White teams up with Rob Zins to debate Robert Sungenis & Scott Butler (4 Hours 19 Minutes)
- The Papacy (CD)(MP3) This is a set of two debates between Dr. White and Gerry Matatics held in Denver, Colorado during the Papal visit in 1993. Does the New Testament allow for an office of Pope? Was there a Papacy in the Early Church? Was Peter the first Pope? Does Peter have a line of successors? Is the Pope truly the Head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on Earth, and the leader of all Christians? These are crucial questions that must be answered. (5 hrs, 14 minutes)
- The Matthew 16 Controversy by William Webster
- Upon this Slippery Rock by Eric D. Svendsen
- The Roman Catholic Controversy by James R. White
-TurretinFan
08:27:55 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

"We Have Apostolic Tradition"- The Unofficial Catholic Apologist Commentary #11
07/06/2009 - James Swan
Catholic apologists often let us know how crucial it is to have an infallible magisterium and church Tradition in order to interpret the Bible correctly. With so many Catholic apologists now commenting on sacred scripture, I thought it would be interesting to provide their commentary on the Bible. Let's see how they've been able to rightly divide the word of truth.James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Recently on Catholic Answers, John Martignoni attempted "Scriptural Apologetics." In the MP3 clip below, he offers Biblical proof why Catholics should confess sins to priests.
For Mr. Martignoni, James 5:16 is a clear passage demonstrating confession to a priest. He tells us "elders" in James 5:14 means "priests," because the Greek word "presbyter" is the "root word" of the English word "priest." For a brief response to such an argument, take a listen to this short MP3 clip from Dr. White's debate on the Roman Catholic Priesthood. The word "priest" is certainly used in the Bible, but not in any way relevant to Martignoni's interpretation.
For instance, if "elder" means "priest," it should follow for Mr. Martignoni that all the functions of the presbyter found in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 should apply to priests. Recall, Paul tells us they are "the husband of but one wife," they manage their families well, and their children obey them. Martignoni's current priests though aren't following these scriptural guidelines.
A very interesting omission from Martignoni's answer is his lack of insight into the phrase "confess your sins to one another." He has no problem mentioning one is supposed to confess sins to a priest. Doesn't the "to one another" part suggests a mutual confession? James goes on to mention that believers should pray for each other. Does James only mean confessors are to pray for priests? Calvin's comment on this text likewise scrutinizes Martignoni's interpretation:
"Wonderful, indeed, is the folly or the insincerity of the Papists, who strive to build their whispering confession on this passage. For it would be easy to infer from the words of James, that the priests alone ought to confess. For since a mutual, or to speak more plainly, a reciprocal confession is demanded here, no others are bidden to confess their own sins, but those who in their turn are fit to hear the confession of others; but this the priests claim for themselves alone. Then confession is required of them alone. But since their puerilities do not deserve a refutation, let the true and genuine explanation already given be deemed sufficient by us" [Source: Calvin's Commentary on James, verse 5:16].
There are other voices within the confines of Romanism letting us know what this verse means. Cardinal Cajetan in the sixteenth century said, "Nor does he here speak of sacramental confession, as appears from what he says, confess one to another; for sacramental confession is not to one another, but to the priests" [source]. Bede interprets this verse by saying everyday sins should be confessed to one another, while serious sins should be confessed to an elder:
Bede (672/673-735), commenting on 1 John 5:16: "Let anyone who knows that his brother is committing a sin-not-to-death ask, and life will be given to him who is sinning not to death. These and things of this sort which have to do with the duty of love of our brothers are requested according to the Lord's will. For he is speaking about daily and trivial sins, which, as they are difficult to avoid, so also are they easily cured. But James implies more openly in what order this request for one another's sins is to be carried out when he says, Confess your sins to one another and pray for each other, that you may be saved. If perhaps you have transgressed by speech or thought or forgetfulness or ignorance, therefore, go to your brother, confess to him, beg for his intercession. If he by confessing simply makes you aware of your own weakness, you by interceding devoutly also wipe away his wrongdoing. But what has been said applies to trivial sins. But if you have committed something more serious bring in the elders of the Church and be chastened at their investigation" [Source: David Hurst, O.S.B., trans., Bede the Venerable (673-735) on the catholic Epistles (Kalamazoo: Cistercian Publications, 1985), p. 222-223].
Latin text: Qui scit fratrem suum peccare peccatum non ad mortem, etc. Haec et hujusmodi secundum voluntatem Domini petuntur, quae ad fraternae dilectionis officium exspectant. Loquitur autem de quotidianis [Col. 0117C] levibusque peccatis, quae sicut difficile vitantur, sic etiam facile curantur. Sed quo ordine haec alterutrum petitio sit celebranda pro peccatis, Jacobus insinuat apertius, dicens: Confitemini alterutrum peccata vestra, et orate pro invicem ut salvemini (Jac. V). Si ergo dictu, vel cogitatu, vel oblivione, vel ignorantia forte deliquisti, vade ad fratrem, confitere illi, postula interventionem. Si ipse te fragilitatis suae conscium pure confitendo fecerit, et tu ejus errata pie intercedendo dilue. Sed haec de levioribus dicta sint peccatis. Porro si gravius quid admisisti, induc presbyteros Ecclesiae, et ad illorum examen castiga te [Source: Migne PL 93].
The Navarre Bible says "It's impossible to say exactly what type of confession is being referred to" [source]. They also mention Augustine interpreted the verse "as referring to a pious custom of confessing sins to others in a public act of contrition at which people prayed for one another." They also point out Trent refers to the verse "without intending to define the meaning of the text."
In his Introduction to the New Testament, Raymond Brown notes the relation of James 5:13-15 with verse 16 "is very disputed." After citing Didache 4:14 ("In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions"), Brown states the interpretation that verses 13-16 describes community confession, prayer, and healing has "the greatest following and does justice to an early attitude where the emergence of designated authorities had not yet rendered otiose community-shared sacred actions" [pp.738-739].
A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture doubts the connection of the elders and prayers for the sick mentioned in 5:13-15 with verse 16, it also doubts the verses are an exhortation to sacramental confession:
"There is considerable difference of opinion about the meaning of 16. 'Therefore' which is found in the oldest MSS seems to join this admonition to the preceding one; yet it is hard to see what connexion a mutual confession of sins has with the anointing of the sick. Perhaps 'therefore' has another reference to the next clause, 'pray for one another' as Camerlynck, 72, suggests. Then the sense would be: If the prayer of faith over the sick, together with the anointing, is able to save the sick man; and 'if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him', then it is expedient to 'pray one for another that you may be saved', i.e. eternally. For the purpose of convincing one another of the need of mutual prayer, a mutual confession of sin is recommended. Older interpreters, like St Thomas, S. T. Suppl. Q. 6, a. 6, and St Robert Bellarmine, De Poenit. Lib. 3, c. 4; regard this passage as an exhortation to sacramental confession, thereby assigning a very restricted meaning to the phrase, 'confess your sins to one another', namely, a confession of sins to a delegated priest. Interpreters, who defend this restricted meaning cite as examples, Rom 15:7; 1 Thes 5:11; Eph 5:21. In these passages, they claim, the restricted meaning of 'one another' is borne out by the context. But only the last instance allows such a meaning, and it is doubtful whether it may be applied in the present context" [Source: Dom Bernard Orchard, M.A., ed., A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, p. 1176, second column].
Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary (1859) says sacramental confession in James 5:16 is not certain, though it may mean one must confess to a priest:
Ver. 16. Confess, therefore, your sins, &c. Divers interpreters expound this of sacramental confession, though, as the authors of the annotations on the Rheims Testament observe, this is not certain. The words one to another, may signify that it is not enough to confess to God, but that we must also confess to men, and not to every man, but to those whom God appointed, and to whom he hath given the power of remitting sins in his name.
Where is Martignoni's "authentic interpreter" to clean up this mess? A while back he stated to me, "I do not claim to be an authentic interpreter of Scripture. I do not try to persuade people to believe Scripture based upon my private interpretations." Once again, we find Romanism replete with differing interpretations, as well as Martignoni's less than responsible exegesis.
00:01:00 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -

Mark Shea and the Desperate Defense of Marian Mythology
07/02/2009 - James White
I just received my set of Mark Shea’s three volume set, Mary, Mother of the Son. I began looking through it a bit Tuesday evening, and noticed no personal references in the indexes. But, as I looked at his attempt to force Revelation 12 into one of the few supports for the edifice of Marian theology I noted that either his publisher did not include footnote references in the index, or, they just didn’t want to include my name. In any case, ironically, yesterday morning I was sent this from Shea’s blog:I'm happy to report that I have not yet seen a single negative review! Catholic response has been uniformly thumbs up, which makes Papa proud of his baby. (Of course, there will *be* negative reviews from guys like James White, Eric Svendsen, James Swan and the other nattering nabobs of anti-Catholicism, whose *job* is to give a negative review to stuff like this.) But once you get away from the anti-Catholic fever swamps, I will be interested to see how the book fares in place like Christianity Today, where you have honest Evangelicals who are serious about trying to engage Catholics, well, honestly.Well, isn’t that special? Shea is one of the more acidic Roman Catholic apologists, and, of course, we see he is one of the less honest ones, for he, like so many others, dehumanizes his opponents through the “anti-Catholic” moniker, that arrogant mark of the Roman Catholic who is so enamored with the Papacy that they are willing to define others solely upon the basis of their relationship to Rome. I doubt he sees how inane the constant use of the “anti-Catholic” cudgel is in light of the wide range of work I have done over the years. I can just see a Muslim reading Shea’s words with a bemused look of confusion as to why Shea would be so narrow minded. Combine that with an implicit accusation of personal dishonesty, and you have another example of why I have repeatedly said that “Things aren’t very good in the Roman Catholic apologetics community.” I suppose it is a positive for Shea that at least he hasn’t been investing his life in digging out old posts from years ago to put them back on his blog, like Dave Armstrong has been doing the past few weeks in his on-going jihad against Tim Enloe (a spectacle in and of itself).
In any case, I would not wish to disappoint Mr. Shea. Let me begin by talking about...global warming. You see, there are many, many people in Western Culture who are absolutely convinced that mankind is harmfully warming the earth through the production of carbon by-products, especially carbon dioxide, the chief of the “green house gases.” And those folks are now in charge in most Western nations, and they are ravaging the economies of those nations in an attempt to “save the planet.” So rabid are the devotees of this position that they have become dogmatic in their demands that everyone agree with them. They brook no opposition. They will not debate the viewpoint. They have declared all opposition null and void, the discussion is over, the facts are all theirs! Despite a wide and deep variety of counter-evidence that demonstrates their position to be mythological in nature, not factual or scientific, they boldly proclaim their position to be the truth, and all who would dare oppose it are censored. As some may know when the High Priest of Global Warming, Al Gore, “testified” in Congress recently, the “other side” was not even allowed to respond. And just this past week news broke (thankfully!) of the gross bias of the EPA in suppressing a study that demonstrates that carbon dioxide and water vapor actually can function to suppress the warming process in global weather systems.
So why do I mention the global warming myth in response to Mark Shea? Because of the parallels I see between the wild-eyed fanaticism of the global warming proponents, who can twist any fact, any statistic, into evidence of global warming (a new record high? Global warming! A new record low? Global warming! A cat-5 hurricane? Global warming! Few hurricanes in a season? Global warming! Record cold beginning of the summer in many places? Global warming! Cardinals play in the Super Bowl? Global warming!), and the dogged, devoted, fanatical re-reading of all of history, logic, and theology that is needed to pry the Marian doctrines into the Bible, the teachings of the Apostles, and the early church. Just as the global warming advocate will trot out his “facts,” which are almost always either 1) irrelevant, 2) localized, or 3) a-contextual, so too the Marian devotee will comb through the entirety of the Bible and the corpus of ancient writers looking for anything to substantiate the massive cathedral of Marian theology that has been produced by Rome over the past centuries. And once again, most of the time the “facts” they produce are irrelevant or a-contextual as well. Though the broad body of current data, if interpreted without a horrific bias, speaks loudly against the current mania to “save the planet,” the global warming advocate has no ears to hear; he or she can only “see” the facts that support his or her theory. In the same way, the Bible and the writings of the early church together testify loudly that the Marian dogmas were unknown to the Apostles and only slowly developed as concepts over time, first outside the faith, then slowly infiltrating into the external church, eventually reaching the status of “dogma” only through a process of evolutionary degeneration and change. Just as global warming is not the “clear verdict of the scientific evidence,” so too the Marian dogmas stand against the entire weight of the evidence of sound biblical exegesis and fair-minded, non-anachronistic reading of the patristic literature.
But a fair, non-anachronistic reading of either the Bible or the early church is not what you are going to find in Shea’s 3 volumes (which, I note, could have easily been a single larger volume). This is the work of a Marian devotee, so do not expect any fair handling of the objections to the rise of the Marian dogmas. Any reference to Mary, even if it is not amplified by the early writer from whose work it is culled, is anachronistically expanded into a wildly major element of that writer’s theology, and, hence, emblematic of a widespread Marian devotion or belief. It is not like Shea can avoid such manhandling of the patristic materials: it is the bread and butter of all Marian devotees, and hence much of modern Roman Catholic historiography, at least that which comes from the conservative elements of Rome. Anachronism is the necessary result of Rome’s dogmatic claim of infallibility and patristic consensus: those who defend Rome must “see” in the patristic sources what their ultimate authority has dogmatically defined to be there. So Shea can repeat the party line about Ignatius and the concept of the literal bodily presence of Christ as if Ignatius holds to the modern Roman dogma. We have demonstrated this is a horrible misreading of Ignatius, unsustainable for anyone who reads the text in its context, here. Now it must be remembered, Shea has already expended a lot of energy in his previous writings laying a foundation for the utter muddling of exegesis. No context is clear enough to overthrow his appeal of the “senses” of Scripture. Clearly, Scripture is but a pile of clay in the hands of the follower of Rome who wishes to “find” in its words something to substantiate what is, in reality, the teaching of the Magisterium and nothing else. So we are hardly surprised to find a world of difference in Shea’s excuse making and circular reasoning and the sound exegesis to be found in classical Reformed works relating to the Bible or church history. Again, he can’t help it: when you seek to promote that which is a-historical, that kind of thing happens. It “comes with the territory.”
In any case, I turn to the text I ran into while thumbing through the books when they first arrived. I was naturally drawn to the chapter where Shea attempts to provide a biblical basis for his Marian doctrines. This is truly where the wheels fell off for Gerry Matatics in New York in the mid 1990s, for the only way to make the Bible teach what Rome teaches today about Mary is to twist and distort it to a massive degree, and that is harder to do in a debate where the other guy has equal time to point out your errors. In any case, Shea pulls a fast one on his readers, starting with pages of discussion of how the New Testament reads the Old Testament--an obviously important issue. But he then attempts to utilize his conclusions on that matter as a springboard for reading Marian fulfillments into New Testament passages. There is one problem: the New Testament writers never even attempt to make the application Shea does. That rather major discontinuity should not be forgotten.
What follows is the standard issue “Mary is the Ark of the Covenant” presentation made by modern Roman Catholic apologists. I have dealt with this many times in the past (Shea shows no familiarity with the rebuttals offered). He even repeats some of the same errors Matatics did in the initial presentation of this material I heard back in 1994 or 1995. He correctly states that the verb επισκιάζω appears in Luke 1:35 relating to the overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit, and says the same verb is used of the Shekinah glory overshadowing the “place where the Ark was kept” in Exodus 40:35 and 1 Kings 8:10 (p. 110). And just as Matatics did fifteen years ago, he moves quickly on, seeking to create a “wave” effect by throwing an entire series of claims together, hoping the combined weight will have the desired impact upon the reader. But just as I did back in 1994 or 1995, once again I stopped the freight train and began examining each point of the argument for consistency and truth value. And immediately we find problems.
First, the cloud under discussion in Exodus 40:35 settled upon the tent of meeting, not merely upon the Ark of the Covenant. There were lots of other items in the tent of meeting other than the Ark: why are they not relevant? Why can’t we find a picture of Paul, or James, in, say, some piece of the furniture found in the same location? Secondly, the cloud was that which indicated the presence of Yahweh; when the cloud lifted, the people moved. It gave direction, guidance. Shall we try to read something into this, as well? But what is more, just as Matatics was in error fifteen years ago to say that the very same term is used in 1 Kings 8:10, Shea remains in error today. The verb found there is επλησεν from πίμπλημι,to fill.” I suppose the second reference could simply be to something “filling” the house of the Lord, but again, it is not the same term. So what is the relevance of 1 Kings 8:10? We can’t tell.
So, the first part of the argument, one that Shea is going to claim is as “plain as day,” is that if the cloud settled on the tabernacle of meeting, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, then clearly, Mary is the tabernacle of meeting...no, wait, she’s the Ark of the Covenant.
Next, 2 Samuel 6:9 is cited, where David is afraid of Yahweh because of the Uzzah incident, and he asks a rhetorical question about how the Ark could ever come to him in Jerusalem in light of what has happened in striking Uzzah dead. This is forced into a position of parallelism with Luke 1:43 where Elizabeth asks, “And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” The only parallel is “to me” (the verbs “to come” are different---if Luke was trying to parallel, why did he not use the same words?), while the contexts are completely different, one expressing fear and frustration, the other blessing and honor. One’s credulity is truly strained at this point, but Shea presses on. ...
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20:11:42 - Category: Roman Catholicism - Link to this article -
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