Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog
Roman Catholic Apologetics: Street Level (#3)
Roman Catholic Apologetics: Street Level (#3)
08/08/2006 - James White
I continue with my response to "Jerry-Jet" on the Envoy Magazine web boards and his comments regarding me.
The TRUTH is that Mr. White is leading people to Hell and people SHOULD be told that if they follow HIS interpretation of the Bible and not the Catholic Church who Jesus gave that authority to and if done with full knowledge and choice then HELL will be the result! As I noted earlier, we might have a budding Feeneyite here, it is hard to say. But the contrast between a reasoned, contextual look at John 6, and this kind of rhetoric, should be obvious to all. But just for the fun of it:
In other words, in respect of His divine presence in the flesh it was rightly said to the disciples, 'Me you will not have always.' In this respect the Church enjoyed His presence only for a few days: now it possesses Him by faith, without seeing Him with the eyes....He left the world by a bodily withdrawal, He proceeded to the Father by His ascension man, but He forsook not the world in the ruling activity of His presence. I realize many Roman Catholics get very upset when we Protestants quote from patristic sources, but that's OK. Augustine's doctrine of the physical body of Christ post-resurrection is deeply problematic for fire-brand type Roman Catholics like Jerry-Jet. But there is a very large probability no one has ever mentioned the reality of Augustine's views to him to begin with. Let's hope someday he will take the time to look into such things.
The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which He addressed to His disciples after the supper, when Himself in immediate proximity to His passion, and, as it were, on the even of depriving them of His bodily presence while continuing His spiritual presence to all His disciples till the very end of the world...." (Augustine, John: Tractates 50, 92, 102, and 118).
Who is the bread of of the Kingdom of God, but He who says, "I am the living Bread which came down from heaven?" Do not get your mouth ready, but your heart. On this occasion it was that the parable of this supper was set forth. Lo, we believe in Christ, we receive Him with faith. In receiving Him we know what to think of. We receive but little, and are nourished in the heart. It is not then what is seen, but what is believed, that feeds us. Therefore we too have not sought for that outward sense.
This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. (Augustine John: Tractate 25:12).
In other words, in respect of His divine presence we always have Christ; in respect of His presence in the flesh it was rightly said to the disciples, 'Me ye will not have always.' In this respect the Church enjoyed His presence only for a few days: now it possesses Him by faith, without seeing Him with the eyes." (Lectures on the Gospel of John, 50:13)
That's the truth! It isn't pretty--it isn't nice--there's not a NICE way to say it--but it's Jesus' words and they are true! I will gladly let the reader decide who has accurately handled Jesus' words.
ANYONE who is lurking consider those things and ask yourself if you'd rather bet your soul on 2,000 years of Jesus' Catholic Church which still stands today or whether you'd rather bet it on Mr. White whose very bitterness and lack of charity should convince you if nothing else does that he is of Satan! Sort of hard to determine just who is lacking in "charity" by Jerry-Jet's language, but then again, these are the Envoy boards, and the tone is set there by Art Sippo, so we shouldn't be overly surprised at this kind of rhetoric. We all heard the "2,000 years of Jesus' Catholic Church" mantra last year when John Paul II died, and it was almost never challenged. I would ask our writer to name, please, a single bishop at the Council of Nicea who believed as he believes on each of these topics: Marian dogmas (Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, Bodily Assumption), Papal Authority (infallibility), Purgatory, transubstantiation. Any semi-serious reader of history knows he would not be able to find such a person, so the claim of "2,000 years" may sound impressive, but it has the truth value any advertising slogan carries: none. It may sound great to those ignorant of history, and to those who wear the glasses Rome provides that filters out all the extraneous problems and issues, but for anyone with an even semi-decent grasp of the past, it is a hollow, shallow claim.
The choice is yours--come on home to the Catholic Church! Why do I think of a used car salesman when I hear this kind of rhetoric? "Ah, you don't need to look under the hood, just trust us!"
P.S. For all of you Catholics out there who TREMBLE at the thought of "Debating" one of Satan's agents like Mr. White why not just try using Jesus' words about the Eucharist? i'd tell him these very words to his face in front of the whole world and would have no problem using the words of Our Lord! Isn't that the BEST way to deal wth an agent of Satan intent on leading people to Hell? Of course, Jerry-Jet hasn't bothered to listen to the debates I have already done on the Mass (vs. Matatics, Sungenis, and Father Mitch Pawa), or, if he has, he somehow missed the biblical and logical responses to his misreading of the sacred text. But in either case, you get a feeling for the kind of rhetoric that is often found on these web boards. Oddly, when I invite folks like Jerry-Jet to call the Dividing Line to discuss their less-than-kind personal attacks, well, as we've seen, rare is the person willing to do so. Remember the young fellow a few weeks ago who promised to call back with examples of my cheap debating tricks? Yeah, it's been pretty quiet. And Mr. Atwood just last week? Isn't it odd how I make myself available at a toll free number twice a week, and folks like Jerry-Jet won't call? Yes, I think it says something, too.
P.P.S. for Protestants who didn't KNOW any better and were ignorant I wouldn't use this approach but for all those people who would chime in and say that such words against Mr. White would not convert any Protestants at all I'll say is this: Jesus taught words in John chapter 6 that at the time didn't win him many followers either but later on millions came to know Jesus and the Catholic Church! The irony is that these would be disciples who stopped following Jesus (Jesus identified them as unbelievers, remember?), did so because he said something that the vast majority of Roman Catholics simply refuse to believe: "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). The sovereignty of God in salvation, man's utter dependence upon Him and His grace, is what finally drove these men away, not some "eucharistic doctrine" developed way down the road somewhere.
Is it wrong to use the very words of Jesus against the agents of Satan? Have faith! Many may hate you for using such words but the words of Jesus will always bear fruit! Of course, it is my hope and desire that the words of Jesus will in fact bear fruit in Jerry-Jet's life by breaking through the wall of tradition and false teaching and showing him the true way of grace and the perfection of the work of Christ on Calvary. He may call me an "agent of Satan" all he wants. I know his hatred is directed toward the truth I speak, not me personally. It's obvious he does not know me, or almost anything about me. All he knows is I stand opposed to the religious system in which he has placed his trust and faith. I do hope someone will have the opportunity of ministering life to Him through the Word through the mercy of God.
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