Debates

A Debate Between Professor James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, 
and Brother John Mary, Representing the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary

 Resolved: The Church of the Council of Nicæa is not the Roman Catholic Church 

Opening Statement: Brother John Mary

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Professor James White, who has chosen the proposition for this debate, believes that the Council of Nicæa was a legitimate council of the Catholic Church. He believes he is a member of the Catholic Church, but not the Roman Catholic Church. I have taken the negative position against his proposition, knowing full well that the Church of the Council of Nicæa was indeed the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the same Church to which I belong in the twentieth Century.

To say "The Church of the Council of Nicæa was not the Roman Catholic Church" is sort of like saying to Leonardo DaVinci: "I don't care what the history books say: You did not paint the Mona Lisa!," or to George Washington : "It doesn't matter whom they carved into stone at Mt. Rushmore: You were not a president of the United States," or even better: "Thou art not Peter; and upon this rock I do not build my Church, and the gates of hell shall prevail against it." Sounds silly? Of course it does. Why? Primarily because such claims would deny the obvious. What is obvious here? That from the founding of the Church by Christ in 33 AD until the Council of Nicæa in 325 AD, there has always been a body of Christians acting as the visible and authoritative True Church, espousing Roman Catholic doctrines. The actions and language of the Council of Nicæa confirms this. It is my intention to present all the available arguments and historical documentation to help you, the reader, realize this.

If the Church at the Council of Nicæa was not the Church with papal authority, hierarchical structure, the priesthood, bishops with jurisdiction, the sacraments, blessed objects, ritual exorcisms, holy water, infant baptism, relics, veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary (who was assumed into heaven), belief in her Immaculate Conception and perpetual sinlessness, veneration of the Saints, excommunications, statues and icons, prayers for the dead, apostolic succession, miracles and all the other components of Roman Catholicism rejected by Professor White, then what Church was it? Later, I will provide proofs that those men who were present at the Council of Nicæa held Roman Catholic beliefs, distinct from those beliefs of James White. If ProfessorWhite does not hold the same beliefs as the men who were part of the Nicene Council, then it will be plain to see that James White is not part of the Church responsible for the Council of Nicæa. When I provide the proofs that the Nicene bishops and priests held Catholic doctrines, then it can be concluded that the Church at Nicæa and the Roman Catholic Church are indeed the same entity.

Would Dr. White care to list the condemnations of the Catholic Church against Christians like St. Ephrem who apparently held "heretical" beliefs concerning the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her perpetual sinlessness? Is there any mention at Nicæa of such condemnations? Why would the Catholic Church allow St. Ephrem to hold such a position as he held at the council if he was a heretic?

Is it not heresy to "deny" Holy Scripture? "For all have sinned and do need the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Is it or is it not heresy to say that Mary never sinned? If you say yes, why was Ephrem not condemned? His belief in the Immaculate Conception was certainly no secret. Were they more lax back in those days, or is it that his profession represented a time-honored tradition originating from the Apostles? St. Ephrem was only one of many that professed the Universal belief in the Immaculate Conception. If Professor White disagrees with the latter remark, he will be asked to back it up, and I will prove him wrong. The Catholics present at the Council of Nicæa were well-familiar with this Marian tradition, and would have joyfully accepted Pope Pius IX's definition of the Immaculate Conception. (This will be expounded on in a future debate on The Assumption of Mary.)

By attempting to defend his proposition, does Professor White think he can easily dismiss the copious and manifest facts of history, not to neglect the very words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? In this debate, I will carry the following principles unto their conclusions:

1) Christ founded a visible Church which was to be in existence for all time and everywhere, until the end of the world (ergo the name Catholic, meaning Universal). 2) The Church would have binding authority over men in matters of faith and morals. 3) By its very nature, the Church of 33 AD, established by Christ, would always be recognizable throughout the centuries. 

There can be only one Church that fits that description. What Church existed in all centuries since the first century AD? If Dr. White intends to prove that The Roman Catholic Church is not that Church, then he must supply the proofs indicating which Church does fit the description, and has been in existence from 33 AD. Whatever Church the Church at Nicæa was, its structure, hierarchy and doctrines would have to be found in every single century subsequent to the fourth century: "And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (Matt. 28:20) Acknowledging these very words of Christ as meaning that He would always be with His Church, I will insist, throughout the debate, that Professor White positively identify the True Church of Christ in centuries following the Council of Nicæa. Remember: James White has stated he believes Christ established a visible Church. He will not be able to claim that the Church was not visible after the Council of Nicæa. Here, he must positively identify the True Church after the fourth century. When he attempts to do this, I will show that those Christians, whom he will be quoting, were actually Catholics or heretics. In this endeavor, I will be giving him two choices: 1) to deny that Christ intended His Church to continue after the Council of Nicæa 2) to admit that the visible Church seen throughout history was indeed Roman Catholic.

As an aside, James White is part of a Reformed Baptist congregation. Could he name some of the councils initiated by the Reformed Baptists, subsequent to the Council of Nicæa? And if Reformed Baptists were not in existence yet, then why is he a Reformed Baptist? Would he also name some of the members of his church from those councils? And if his church did not initiate councils, why not? He does not deny that the Council of Nicæa was a legitimate council of the Church established by Christ. According to James White, was Nicæa the last council the "True Catholic Church" ever had?

At this point, I wish to establish some foundational arguments based on Holy Scripture. The following quotes are from the New Testament and pertain directly to the Church Christ established. Here I point out that in order for the Church in question to be universal, and established by Christ, it must be able to pass this litmus test which incorporates Our Lord's own words:

"Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matt. 5:17)

If Christ did not come to destroy the Old Law, but to fulfill it, then we know the Church He was about to establish in the New Testament could be recognized by its resemblance to the Church of the Old Testament - the Church of the Jews. Because if He did not intend destruction of the Old Law, then He must have intended a certain preservation of it by way of continuity. Now, ask yourself this one question: What Church, claiming to have been established by Christ and in existence since the first century AD, would bear resemblance to the religion practiced by the Hebrew high priests in the Holy Temple? The Roman Catholic Church would. What denomination has designed its church buildings, according to the design of the Holy Temple, including the sanctuary, porch and knave? Again: the Roman Catholic Church. Further, in what church will one find incense, candles, holy water, vestments, rubrics, and other such ceremonies found in the Old Testament? Need I answer?

What Christian Church has a priesthood? Did Christ say He would destroy the priesthood? Where does it say that in the New Testament? What Christian Church offers sacrifice? (The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.) Where does Christ say that sacrifice will no longer be offered for remission of sins in His Church? What Christian Church has the Eucharist and declares it to be the Body of Christ? Why did the Council Fathers at Nicæa codify Canon #18 if they did not believe in the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist and the power of the priesthood?

Would Dr. White care to explain the seemingly Romanish tone of that canon? And while we are on canons: Would Dr. White care to list any "canons" proposed by the Reformed Baptist Church? If such canons exist, am I bound to obey them?

All of the Catholics attending the Nicene council had a belief in Purgatory. What Christian Church has a belief in Purgatory, as the Jews of the Old Testament did, and the Jews of today still do? Ask any Rabbi who says the Kaddish -- the prayers for the dead at a Jewish funeral. The Rabbi will relate that it is simply an ancient tradition from the Patriarchs and Prophets (before the Christian era). We even see St. Paul making reference to the deceased Onesiphorus:

"The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest." ( 2Tim. 1:18)

Since it is plain to see that St. Paul offered a prayer for the repose of the soul of Onesiphorus, a repose which according to St. Paul was, in part, merited by certain works he had performed for St. Paul, then surely we can assume that every faithful Catholic at the Nicene Council held the same belief. And why pray for the repose of a Christian soul if there is no Purgatory, only Heaven or Hell? (This apparently heretical utterance by St. Paul may have given St. Peter an opportunity to even up the score with St. Paul, after having been rebuked by him in Galatians Chapter 2.)

"The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day." This sounds so much like the Catholic prayer for the faithful departed: "Eternal rest grant unto him O Lord, and may perpetual light shine upon him. And may his soul and the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen." Why offer prayers for the dead if it is to no avail? Either St. Paul was a heretic or a Catholic. Now I ask Dr. White: Since the Jews always believed in a place of purgation, as we Catholics believe in Purgatory, then where in the New Testament do we hear of Purgatory being abolished? Even more interesting: What year did the Catholic Church initiate an unscriptural and untraditional doctrine known as Purgatory? Also: Who were the true Christians who condemned that belief when the Catholic Church initiated it? Surely there were Christians around like Dr. White to challenge this novelty.

I continue with the foundational scripture quotes:

"And I say to thee: thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shall bind upon earth it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth is loosed also in heaven." (Matt. 16: 18,19)

James: At this point, you're probably saying to yourself: "Here we go again." Surprise! I won't be getting into an explanation of how Christ founded the Church on Peter, and that Peter was the first Pope, as is evidenced by the above quote. Rather, I will make the following points: 1) Christ founded the Catholic Church; 2) Christ promised His Church shall never fail (indefectability) 3) Christ gave His Church authority over men. (James White would agree with all of these statements).

The lawful authority of the Catholic Church was witnessed at the Council of Nicæa when it corrected the heretics through the binding force of it canons. That authority was recognized by the entire Catholic Church in future Councils. In this debate, James White has not questioned the authority of the Catholic Church which was exercised at the Nicene Council. Quite fairly then, I ask, what other Councils of the Church does James White accept, and if he does accept any others, does he also recognize the authority behind them which binds the faithful? Extending the idea further: What church other than the Roman Catholic Church exercised binding authority on its members, for instance, in the 9th century AD? If it wasn't the Roman Catholic Church, then which Church was it?

Does Professor White exercise binding authority over the members of his congregation as the Catholic Church does by Her disciplines (fasting, indulgences, penances, etc.)? If not, then who in his denomination has that authority? (The same kind of authority we witness at Nicæa - a council Professor White accepts.)

"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid." (Matt. 5:14)

"So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 5:16)

Here Our Lord tells the Apostles that their faith and good works must be visible for all the world to see. He is revealing His plan for the Church - a plan that includes high-visibility and edifying example. The Church at the Council of Nicæa was as visible as city seated on a mountain. The entire Christian world knew that the True Catholic Church convened the council. It gave light to the world in its condemnation of Arianism, the denial of the Divinity of Christ, when it defined His Divinity for all time.

If Our Lord intended His Church to be highly visible and recognizable, as Dr. White has already agreed , then after the Council of Nicæa we should be able to easily identify the True Church and her members in subsequent centuries. After all, Nicæa was held in 325 AD, and we will be citing councils that came hundreds of years after Nicæa. Records and writings concerning these councils are much more abundant that those available from the 4^th century AD. It will be by this continuity that you will discover the Roman Catholic Church is the same Church which was responsible for the Council of Nicæa. Maybe we should ask Dr. White to list all known Church councils convened in the East and the West after Nicæa, and tell us which were "Catholic" and which were Roman Catholic or which were neither. I assume he would accept the Catholic ones while rejecting the Roman Catholic ones thus leaving me to wonder what he would do with the "neithers." I think this would be a good one for the Q&A. 

As a follow-up question, Professor White could be asked to identify members of the True Church in centuries following Nicæa, and show how those members did not hold Roman Catholic beliefs. In order to identify himself as a member of the True Church that convened the Council of Nicæa, he must prove those Christians believed what he believes as a Reformed Baptist.

My next Scriptural passage:

"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to obey all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (Matt. 28:19,20)

By this passage, we surely know that Christ will always be with His Church. Professor White agrees with this principle. Christ was with His Church in 325 AD when it convened the Nicene council - another fact with which my opponent would agree. If He was with his Church in 325 AD, then He is with His Church in 1997. The burden of proof is on Professor White to show us which Church is the True Church of Christ in the twentieth century. Since we will prove that the Council of Nicæa taught Roman Catholic doctrines, and its participants also held Roman Catholic beliefs, then the obvious conclusion will be that the Church at the Council of Nicæa was indeed the Roman Catholic Church.


Thus far, all of my arguments have been mainly conceptual, establishing a logical framework for the rest of my part in this debate. What follows are factual proofs from history which clearly show the Roman Catholic nature of the Church at the Council of Nicæa. For the sake of space, they are presented in brief, buletted paragraphs:

First Point: The Council of Nicæa was attended and run by Roman Catholics. 

• Pope Silvester was represented by two Roman priests, Victor and Vincent, and also by the Bishop of Cordova, Hosius. Both St. Athanasius and Theodoret confirm that Hosius was the president of the Council. In a list drawn in order of rank, the historian Socrates lists Hosius first of all bishops, before more eminent bishops. In fact, Hosius and the two priests signed the decrees first. After their signatures comes that of St. Alexander, Patriarch of Alexandria. By right, no priest should have signed before any bishop. Neither did the bishop of Cordova, Spain have the right to sign before a Patriarch. The other Spanish bishops signed further down on the list, where Hosius would have, had he merely been representing himself, and not Pope Sylvester.

• The synod was convened, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council - Constantinople III - by Constantine and Pope Sylvester: "Arius arose as an adversary to the doctrine of the Trinity, Constantine and Silvester immediately assembled the great Synod at Nicæa."

• According to Socrates, Pope Julius asserted that, "Ecclesiastical discipline prohibits that a decree be received by the Churches unless sanctioned by the Roman Church." Pope Julius ruled the Church 11 years after the Council and was the Pope who affirmed Athanasius' orthodoxy. Athanasius himself quotes this same pontiff rebuking the Eusebians for bypassing his authority (which he "received from the blessed Apostle Peter") in condemning the church of the Alexandrians.

• In Dionysius' collection of the Acts of Nicæa, he affirms that the Pope approved the Council: "And it pleased the council that all these things be send to the Bishop of Rome, Silvester."

• Two of the theologians at the Council were Sts. Ephrem and Athanasius. Both were deacons at the time. The first remained so and a monk his whole life, while the other eventually became a bishop. Ephrem, it can be proved, believed the following: Mary was the Mother of God, the woman of Genesis 3:15, our intercessor in heaven, the "source of our salvation," and she resembles Christ in being totally free from all sin; Peter was the Rock and head of the Church. He (Ephrem) also prayed to saints (dead ones).

• We already cited Athanasius quoting Pope Julius asserting his own papal authority. Elsewhere, Athanasius calls Peter "the Chief" and refers to Rome as "the Apostolic throne."

Second Point: The Council of Nicæa taught Catholic doctrine. 

• Certain canons of the council, among them the eighth, speak of "doing penance" for sins. People found guilty of certain crimes (schism, for one) were to do assigned penances for a certain duration of time. This is the Catholic discipline of "doing penance" that Protestants reject. This canon (8) and others explicitly mention the "Catholic Church."

• Canons 15 and 16 speak of the "ordination" of Bishops, priests, and deacons.

• Canon 18 explicitly mentions the "Eucharistic Sacrifice." In fact, this canon asserts three Catholic dogmatic truths: (1) The Eucharist is the Body of Christ. (2) The Eucharistic service is a "sacrifice." (3) Bishops and priests alone have the power to consecrate the Eucharist. (Do you, James White, accept all Canons from the Council of Nicæa?)

• During the discussion over the Creed, the Eusebians wanted to use only biblical expressions in the Creed, hoping that such wording would be sufficiently vague to allow their Arian interpretation. This was frustrated when the term homousios ("consubstantial") was used. This was a rejection, by the Council Fathers of the sola scriptura approach of the Eusebians.

Third Point: The Church which later subscribed to Nicæa was the Catholic Church. 

• The Robber Council of Ephesus: In 449, the defenders of Eutyches (the Monophysite Heresiarch) summoned a council which was intended to be Ecumenical. A papal legate named Hilarus (later pope) was sent. At one point, through military force (soldiers were present), bishops were forced to sign a decree deposing Saint Flavian, who had condemned Euteches and his followers. With one word, the papal legate brought the council to a halt: Contradicitur, "it is contradicted." He quickly ran from the scene in fear of his life.

• The Council of Chalcedon, which was two years after the Robber Council, condemned its chief architect, Dioscorus because he "…had held an (ecumenical) council without the Apostolic See, which was never allowed." This was a reference to Dioscorus' re-convening the council after the papal legate withdrew. St. Leo the Great excommunicated the perpetrators of the synod and wrote to the emperor that the acts of the council were null. No one in the East or West considers "Ephesus II" to be ecumenical, because the pope condemned it. Was this not the same Church which had, just over one hundred years earlier, held a Council at Nicæa ? Could it have been a different Church?

• Constantinople II: The same guilty party that schemed at the Robber Council also schemed for a Council which eventually became ecumenical - Constantinople II. Pope Vigilius was, in the year 545 forcibly taken to Constantinople, where he was to approve a council convened to condemn, more than 100 years after the fact, the Nestorian doctrines of Theodore of Mopsuestia and two other men. (The monophysites, whose heresy was the opposite of Nestorianism, viewed any fresh condemnation of Nestorianism as a feather in their cap.) The Pope approved the Council, which taught sound doctrine. Because of his approval, this council too is received as ecumenical.

• The Synod at Arles (France) in 314 said that Easter should be celebrated on the same day everywhere, and it appealed to the authority of the Pope to enforce the decision. (This issue was finally settled at the Nicene Council, where the Roman custom for keeping Easter was made the positive law of the Church.)

• Some ancient Latin translations of the Council's sixth canon read: "Ecclesia Romana semper habuit primatum." (The Roman Church has always had the primacy.) This led Emperor Valentinian III in an edict of 445 to maintain that the Council had confirmed the primacy of the Apostolic See.

• In the person of the Patriarch of Constantinople, the Fourth Ecumenical Council at Chalcedon (certainly run by the same Church which ran the First!) sent to Pope Leo their acts to receive his approval, saying, "All the force and confirmation of these acts is reserved to the authority of your Holiness."

• Such saints as Popes Leo the Great and Gregory the Great, Ambrose, and Chrysostom, all of whom, it can be proved, held Roman Catholic doctrine on the Papacy, the Mass, prayers to saints, the authority of Apostolic Tradition, the Papacy, etc., believed in the authority of the Council.

In summary, James White will have the burden of explaining to the reader: why the Council of Nicæa contains canons that are explicitly Roman Catholic in content; why the periti at that Council held Roman Catholic beliefs; why Pope St.Sylvester I sent legates to the Council with an authority which was recognized by all, and much, much more. I look forward to the first set of rebuttals.

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